Walk the Talk America: Mental Health and Firearms 

Walk the Talk America is a pro-Second Amendment non-profit that focuses on mental health, suicide prevention, and community outreach. The organization is the brainchild of Michael Sodini, a firearms industry professional with no shortage of impressive bullet points on his CV (see what I did there?). Anyone who’s familiar with names like Bersa or Grand Power are likely to already an appreciation for his professional contributions to the industry, but he’s arguably become even more well renowned for his philanthropy with Walk the Talk America.  

When I was asked to interview Michael, I fully expected to have nothing more than an e-mail exchange with a PR representative from Walk the Talk America. Instead, I got a Zoom meeting with the man himself. If you’ve heard Michael speak before, you know that he never shies away from covering as much ground as he can, and I’ve got a 6,500-word transcript of our conversation to prove it. I’ve been tasked with condensing the highlights of that conversation to just a small fraction of that length, so consider this article to be the “greatest hits,” of that conversation, if you will.  

Michael, on your Instagram, you call yourself “The Most Un-Gun Gun Guy.” What does that mean to you? 

“I didn’t give myself that name. It’s a nickname that stuck amongst my peers. […] The way I got into the business was through nepotism, […] [from] family members that I grew up around. Guns aren’t necessarily my hobby, you know what I mean? You could sit around ‘gun people’ and they’re literally able to talk about guns all day. But, to me, it’s work. I like to leave it at work. So, everyone always says, “You don’t act like a gun guy,” even though […] if you go into my safe, I have, like, 75 guns in one safe, right? I’m technically a gun guy.  

“But [I got that name] just because of the way that I was able to talk to people outside of the gun world. Because, when I first got into guns, I didn’t understand necessarily the importance of the second amendment. I didn’t understand why banning ARs was problematic. You know what I mean? When I first got in, I had all the what people would call- center-of-left kind of views on guns- even though I wasn’t anti-gun. […]

“It helped me kind of communicate with non-gun people. So, having that in my name, especially [in] the circles I work in, I think it’s less intimidating for people. Because guns can be an intimidating thing, and people know how emotional people get when it comes to their second amendment right.  

“So, it’s just something that’s stuck, and then we kind of leaned into it. So sometimes people are like, ‘Okay, I can’t talk to this person. This person seems irrational,’ or ‘This person seems like someone I can’t even relate to. But I can talk to the un-gun gun guy.’” 

You’re someone who frequently talks across the political divide, which is a really intimidating thing to do. What advice do you have for pro-2A people who talk across that divide with people who may not be ready to consider other points of view just yet? 

“Well, I think one of the hardest parts about talking to the other side has always been that we’ve never had our own solutions. So, the first step is understanding now that, through organizations like Walk the Talk America and maybe the NSSF programs like Don’t Lie for the Other Guy, you know, like Project Child Safe, and then you think of organizations like Hold My Guns or Kids Safe or Kids to Kings– once you’re familiar with the solutions—it’s a lot easier to talk to people—I’ll just call them across the aisle. […]  

“So, if they say, ‘What is it that you do for suicide?’ I can talk about all of suicide prevention and better mental health stuff. If someone says, ‘What are you doing for inner city youth?’ I can talk about our Kids to Kings program and how we’re trying to scale that up. There really isn’t anything you could throw at me where I can’t turn around and say, ‘The firearms industry isn’t working on it.’ They are, and this is what we have. And then usually when they hear what those programs are, they’re so out of the box and new and different, and something they didn’t expect, that then it becomes a completely different conversation […]  

“What I try to do, first and foremost, with everybody I speak to, is meet them where they’re at, and explain to them, ‘hey, look, regardless of how you feel about firearms as a tool, you really don’t hate firearms. You just don’t like people dying. You don’t like to see people hurt.’ And that’s the island we can all meet on.

“Because regardless [of how you feel], take the government out of it for a second, and 99 percent of humans feel the same way. Now we’ve just got to figure out something we can connect with. And what I try to tell people all the time is […], ‘I don’t need you to be pro-gun […] I’m trying to make you pro-understanding […]’ 

“We all have parents, right? And we all have family members. And you knew there was the one family member where you’re like ‘[…] If I try to come at them with a problem, they’re going to either try to solve the problem, or they’re going to tell me to shut up and white-knuckle through it.’ But then you had the understanding family member where you could go and talk to them over and over again. You could ask the same question [again], and you just feel really comfortable at having a really nuanced conversation where you knew you weren’t going to get judged, and that they were going to love you regardless.

“That’s what I wanted to be for the gun industry. I wanted to be that guy where, you know, the vice president of Mental Health America, or the president of NAMI could be like, ‘You know what? I’m going to call Mike and ask him about why I shouldn’t back this legislation,’ or ‘Why is this legislation problematic to gun people? And I may not agree with him, but I want to be able to get his opinion on it. And I don’t want to be afraid to ask that same question 5 times because I don’t understand the concept.’ […] 

“Guns are scary for a lot of people, and I appreciate that. So, the long-winded answer to your question is: Meet people where they’re at, be patient, and provide solutions.” 

How did Kids to Kings get started, and what’s its connection to Walk the Talk America?  

“Devon Perkins, who is the creator of Kids to Kings, interviewed me for a podcast he was hosting at the NRA show in 2018 or 2019. And he said, ‘What are you doing for the black community?’ And I was like, ‘Nothing. […] Nobody needs white hero anymore. You should do something, and I’ll completely support you. […]’  

“And I don’t want to make it sound like white people can’t help. That’s not what I was saying. To me, I don’t want to be the guy who looks like I’m virtue signaling. And I’m not the messenger. I can’t go to Compton and Atlanta and be like, ‘I know what you kids are going through,’ you know what I mean? Devon can, right? Kevin Dixie can. These are guys that grew up in these neighborhoods. The message has to come from the right messenger—not the guy that the kids can’t relate to.  

“That was just something that happened and it was really cool. And it’s kind of cool to see it grow.  

“Here’s the crazy part about this program: I talk about this thing in front of all sides of the aisle. And everybody is for it. […] If you take the average kid from Compton that’s 13 years old and you literally say to people, ‘Let me show you a picture of this kid with a gun,’ their brain goes to a negative place.

“And it’s like, why can’t that kid be the next competition shooter? Why can’t that kid be the next firearms instructor? Why can’t that kid be the next armorer or gunsmith? And I think that we need to reframe the way we look at things in society and realize that, even if you mean well, you might have some blind spots.  

“Like, these kids deserve to have access to proper firearms responsible knowledge. […] Let’s go to Compton. Let’s go to Atlanta. Let’s go to all these places where kids, you know, like I said—only learn about firearms from rap videos—and not that there’s anything wrong with that! Or maybe they have an uncle who’s doing whatever he has to do to survive in those streets but doesn’t necessarily know how to handle guns properly. And maybe he’s a little irresponsible with them.

“Well, let’s take the kids and start coming up with this new generation of kids that can identify things like keep your finger off the trigger. You just took out the magazine, but you didn’t clear the gun. There’s one in the chamber. That’s what I want. I want kids to be able to recognize that. And I believe that the color of your skin should not dictate whether or not you get access to that. At all.

On Ep. 116 of the Guns and Mental Health Podcast, Jaqueline Clark, who owns a range in Denver, had a really alarming story about a suicide that happened at her range. And she talked about the importance of suicide prevention and providing secure storage options for her customers. Is there any way for people to find out if ranges near them have secure storage options? 

“That’s been the toughest part because, in my work, everything we do is on the national level. So, there was an organization called Hold My Guns that’s been trying to create a network that follows the same uniform rules as everybody else. But, what’s complicated about safe storage is that different gun shops have different policies. So, if there’s not, like, one uniform union saying, ‘This is the way you do it,’ then you have to leave it up to the individual gun shops. And with some of the gun shops, you [can] call on any given day and maybe catch an employee who doesn’t know they do safe storage […]  

“The biggest barrier to entry in the United States for firearms shops to take in people’s guns is that they don’t want the liability- and the liability is getting in the way of gun shops really diving in. And I understand that, because we here in the United States are a sue-happy, you know, country. People are like, ‘It’s better for me not to do it at all than to take those risks to save lives.’ And that’s totally ass-backwards! We need to remove that piece [of resistance]! 

“So, like, in the state of Louisiana, one of our partners that we work with was able to pass legislation that removed that liability of any gun shop owner if they gave the gun back too soon. […] And just on a side note, providing safe storage is just one piece of it. […] I would hate for any gun shop to get super excited, and be like, ‘I provide safe storage and then no one ever comes and brings their firearms in!’ And then they kind of fizzle out. I just think it’s more important to get people involved and just kind of baby-step it. 

 “You take these gun shops, [and] you say, ‘We would love for you to offer safe storage, but on top of that, we want you to have materials and resources like free anonymous mental health screenings […] Everything we do at Walk the Talk America is about connection […] In Nevada, […] one of the clinicians is Jake Wiskerchen, who’s the co-host of the Guns and Mental Health podcast. He has clinics up there, and he promotes himself as the gun friendly clinician, right? The culturally competent clinician for gun owners.

“Well, he has all these cards stamped with his information that are in the gun shops. So, it creates a relationship between the local clinician and the gun shop owner. The gun shop owner is not only promoting free and anonymous mental health screenings, but they’re saying, like, ‘Look, if you need to go talk to somebody, and you’re worried about losing your second amendment rights, go talk to Jake.’ 

So, clinicians who take your culture competence class, what kinds of things are they learning in those workshops?  

“First of all, we start it off by telling them what we’ve accomplished. I think the story of Walk the Talk America gives a lot of people hope. […] Clinicians who were anti-gun are always looking at us and thinking, they don’t want to help. They always blame us. But when you show success and [people] […] working together, I think that’s good. […] They get to hear about a clinician coming forward, and the reason why he believes things need to change. And we need more people to come forward and say, ‘I’m a competent clinician with firearms,’ right? ‘I have that cultural competence.’  

“So, you have […] a clinician talking to other clinicians. Then, you also have Guns 101[…] Like, just having a basic understanding of firearms. Because a lot of people don’t understand firearms because of what the media did in America. [Take] the AR-15, you know? Calling it fully automatic? So, what we do is we break down things where we, like, line up calibers to show people. [And we say], ‘These are all bullets. Which one of these can kill you?’ And it’s like, ‘All of them!” right? There’s not one bullet here that can’t kill you. All it takes is one. And it could be a 22.  

“So, we’re just trying to break the stigma of this stuff and show them exactly the difference between firearms. And all this stuff we provide for free. […] We want to be that trusted source for people to go to […] We have a lot of clinicians that come through and they’re like, “When I took this course, I was really anti-gun, but now I can say I’m gun-neutral.’  

And I’m like, ‘That’s exactly where we wanted you to go. That means you’re understanding. […] We have a lot of clinicians who take the course and they’re like, ‘[…] I didn’t know gun people were afraid to talk to me.’ They’re like, ‘[…] I didn’t know that when I asked someone, ‘Hey, you got gun in the house?’ They might be like, ‘What does that matter?’  

At what point should people tell a therapist that they’re gun owners. Is that even a question that I should ask? Obviously, people are scared of red flag laws. 

“I think these conversations should start when people are healthy. Does that make sense? Everyone looks at Walk the Talk America and they’re like, ‘They’re a suicide prevention organization that comes from the firearms industry.’ And I’m like, ‘Yeah, we are, but we’re not trying to prevent suicide at the time that someone’s in crisis. We want to keep you so far [from crisis] that a red flag law never even comes into play. 

“I’m trying to catch you at stage one, not stage four. You know, when the cancer’s really bad. My whole thing is that when you go buy a firearm or you talk to a therapist—and hopefully you are talking to a therapist- […] that you’re not at that crisis moment. I mean, I think we all could be a little bit more mindful of our mental health. But let’s say that you end up there. I see no reason why you can’t pick from a group of clinicians that already understand the world you’ve come from—if the second amendment is the hill you die on—which for many it is—just like other issues are.  

“The example I always give is my mom. My mom is as pro-2a as they come, but my mom is a feminist. And my mom believes in a woman’s right to choose. And that is the hill she will die on. So, you will never change her vote unless you are allowing women to make that choice. So, with my mom, it’s not about getting her to vote for the 2a party. I’ve already given up on that. I just want her to be so knowledgeable about firearms that when she talks to her people, she can help them understand that when [certain] gun laws are [proposed], you should vote against it. […] 

“So, your question originally was, when do you talk to your therapist about your firearms? I think [it’s best to do so] in the beginning, if you’re just healthy about it. Just say, ‘Hey, just so you know, I have a firearms plan, and if I ever get in a crisis…’ I think it’s healthy to share these things. Now, if you’re seeing a therapist and you’re like, ‘I’m literally going to go shoot somebody,’ you have a bigger problem. And then the therapist is going to be in a really weird situation. But I just hope for a healthier society where you’re not even there.  

“I also want people to understand that there’s nothing wrong with asking your therapist why that’s being asked […] And then the therapist can come back with a great answer and say, ‘It has nothing to do with me wanting to take your firearms. I just want to make sure you’re responsible with them […]’ Right now we have doctors—we have pediatricians—that are asking these questions, which are very off putting to a lot of gun owners. And I think they [doctors] could use some cultural competence to understand why we have a fear when we’re asked these questions […]

“Like, I always tell therapists this all the time: assume that every one of your clients has, or lives with, someone that has a firearm. Just be like, ‘Hey you got guns the house? How do you store them? That’s the most important thing right now, because you’re going through a crisis.’  

Is there any way for people who are looking for mental healthcare to find clinicians who have taken your cultural competency courses?  

“Yeah, we have a directory on our website. […] Now, granted, our directory is very tiny right now, right? And that’s what we’re looking to grow as the organization grows. Because what happens is people come for the course and then we give them the option to be listed. But you’ve got to understand something: in the United States, it’s still very frowned upon.  

“It’s funny, because Jake, if he was on—Jake is the clinician on the Guns and Mental Health part of Walk the Talk America—Jake will tell you that therapists are supposed to be the most non-judgmental people on the planet. [But] they can be the most judgmental people on the planet—especially when it comes to firearms. So [anyway], a lot of therapists are like, ‘I took your cultural competence course. I really liked it!’ And we’re like, ‘Hey you want to be listed in our directory?’ And they’re like, ‘I’m not ready for that!’ (Laugh) So, you know, it’s going to take time.  

“And we don’t have the money to advertise in all of the places where the therapists are. Every time I speak at a convention, there’s always one or two [clinicians] who are like, ‘I have no problem being listed in the directory.’ They’ve just got to know that it exists.” 

You talk to a lot of people. Is there anything you wish people would ask you that never comes up? Anything you would like people to know? 

“I just want people to know that if you’re pro-2a, or if you’re pro-firearms, that this is an organization that will make you proud. Everything we stand for and everything we believe in. And we’re good at changing the hearts and minds of people that don’t understand—or historically haven’t understood—us […] And, in a time when we’re so divided […] in this country, it’s the loud ones that dictate how people feel. But most people just want to go about their day. And I think [I would] […] describe [WTTA] as a breath of fresh air for a lot of people […] 

“What we are doing is history. We were the first people to start a cultural competence class for mental health clinicians. We were the first people to create a curriculum for firearms instructors that touched on the subject of mental health and suicide prevention […] 

“The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention is coming out with their own firearms instructor course. Where did they get that idea from? They’ll pretty much tell you that they’re ripping off ours. […] And this is something the firearms industry needs to be proud of. We did it first. For once in our lives, people are copying us and saying, ‘We want to do what they do.’ It’s never been like that. […] So, this is something completely different, and it brings us a spot at the table, [and] to be taken seriously when it comes to how to reduce the negative outcomes of firearms.

Written by: Lanna Perkins, Education Writer